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Odzava

Регистриран на: 24 Авг 2005
Мнения: 418
Местожителство: Хашира Джима

МнениеПуснато на: Сря 12 Май 2010, 00:34    Заглавие:  

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ИВАН написа:
Моля за извинение, че се включвам тук, но не открих подходяща рубрика, в която да задам въпроса си.
Може ли някой да ми помогне с малко информация и евентуално по-качествена снимка на немския кораб "Мюнстерланд"
(Münsterland), разрушен от британски самолети Хоукър "Тайфун" на 21.09.1943 г.
Предварително БЛАГОДАРЯ, защото съм почти 100% сигурен в компетентността на форумците!


Извинявам се, че няма да го превеждам:

Operation Tunnel was an initiative implemented by Naval Command at Plymouth to regain control of the western approaches to the Channel, and in particular to prevent the 4th German E-Boat flotilla, newly supplied with its radar controlled torpedo boats and minesweepers, from escorting their heavily laden merchantmen from their Atlantic ports like Brest to Cherbourg. On October 23rd 1943 a small fleet, led by the Cruiser HMS Charybdis supported by a further six destroyers, including HMS Limbourne, was sent to intercept and destroy The Münsterland,” a 6,000 ton German merchantman that had successfully evaded the American and English fleets in both the Pacific and Atlantic, and was now inching its way along the Breton Coast heading for safe haven in Cherbourg, with full cargo of strategic minerals and vital supplies needed for the German V1 and V2 rocket technology.

The flotilla of German E-Boats proved too much for the British Navy which lost first the Charybdis, sunk by torpedoes and then her escort destroyer, Limbourne, which was so badly damaged she had to be scuttled. Over 500 men lost their lives in the icy waters. The Münsterland, protected by its convoy of minesweepers on one side and the shallows on the other, entered Cherbourg harbour, where in addition she was defended by trawlers armed with anti aircraft guns, and powerful flak batteries on shore.

The following day, 24th October 1943 it was the turn of the RAF to attack using a three-part offensive attack on the Münsterland :
1. 10 Group Ramrod 94 - a high-level attack by two squadrons of Mitchells escorted by 90 Spitfires of the Ibsley, Perranporth and Churchstanton Wings (8 Spitfire squadrons in all).
2. Roadstead 77 Pt 1, low-level attacks by 263 Squadron’s Whirlwinds (escorted by 257 Squadron)
3. Roadstead 77 Pt 2, low-level attacks by 183 Squadron’s Typhoons

We have three eye witness accounts of the low-level attacks made on the Münsterland. ‘Poppa’ Ambrose of 257 Squadron wrote in his log-book, “There was a ship in Cherbourg Harbour, carrying wolfram or tungsten ore. Tungsten was used in specialized armour piercing ammunition. Our intelligence people said it had got through from Japan and had to be hit at all costs. We went out with Reggie Baker’s 263 Whirlwind Squadron with bombs, while we and 183 Squadron were flying with cannon. We were 24 aircraft. When we went for briefing, they said we were going out at nought feet. We said, don’t be silly, only idiots go into Cherbourg Harbour at nought feet – we should dive down, and even that was considered to be virtual suicide.”

Other pilots confirmed the thrilling nature of the attack, “This was the squadron’s first low level attack upon shipping in Cherbourg harbour. Our aircraft flew at just above sea level on a course which brought them between the outer moles and straight to the Münsterland. Four aircraft bombed the Münsterland and two of these attacked with cannons, leaving her on fire in two places. She was well ablaze 11 minutes later but the fire had been extinguished 90 minutes later. The other four aircraft bombed two ships aft of the Münsterland and saw cannons strike one of the. Two pilots then scored strikes on two of six M Class minesweepers in the transatlantic dock. Flak was fired at our aircraft from more than one hundred guns within range from harbour and ships.” Two Whirlwinds were lost to the murderous flak and Flight Sergeant Beaumont reported, “It was like a horizontal hailstorm painted red.”

Bombs and rockets fired by Whirlwinds of 263 Squadron and Typhoons of 257 Squadron had struck the blockade-runner but the Münsterland had suffered only superficial damage. Poppa Ambrose added in his log, “Reg Baker went in with the Whirlwinds and we went in before there was any actual flak from the ship. I remember one chap who actually got a German’s head between the cannons on his Typhoon wing and when he got home it was still there.”

Norman Franks records a postscript added by Poppa Ambrose in his book “Typhoon Attack” After the war I met the Group Captain Ops – I had not met him before – and I said, ‘You were the bloke who sent us into Cherbourg Harbour at nought feet’. He said yes, but said it had been on Churchill’s instructions. Churchill had laid down the tactics – we were to go in ‘on the deck’ as he put it. Anyway we blew up the ship.”

Further reconnaissance showed she was safely berthed in port and virtually unassailable, but the low level attack went ahead, and eight Typhoons of 183 Squadron led by Gowers set off from Predannick. Although they claimed two direct hits on the merchantman the Cherbourg defences proved too strong and downed three Typhoons, including Gowers.
“The squadron had to fly through the fiercest concentration of flak yet encountered, though the attack was made with great courage and daring. Two bombs were thought to have made direct hits and others were very near. As a result of this attack the Squadron suffered most serious losses yet. The C.O. was seen to go down in flames just outside the Mole whilst P/O Rawson(NZ) and P/O Timms did not return.” (183 ORB).

The third eye witness account of the raid, from the acclaimed French pilot Pierre Clostermann, is similarly graphic, “Half of dozen belated Typhoons passed to my right like a school of porpoises, bearing down on the hell going on behind the long granite wall of the breakwater. I skimmed over a fort whose very walls seemed to be belching fire - a curious mixture of crenellated towers, modern concrete casements and thirty Years War glacis. We were now in the middle of the roadstead - an inextricable jumble of trawlers masts and rusty wrecks sticking out between the battered quays. The weather seemed to have cleared a little - Look out for the Jerry fighters! The air was criss-crossed with tracers, lit up by flashes, dotted with black and white puffs of smoke. The Münsterland, was there, surrounded by explosions, flames, and debris. Her four masts bristling with derrick and her squat funnel well aft emerging from the smoke. The typhoon attack was in full swing, bombs exploding all the time with colossal bursts of fire and black clouds of smoke, thickening as they drifted away. A Typhoon vanished into thin air in the explosion of a bomb dropped by one in front. One of the enormous harbour cranes came crashing down like a house of cards.

It would appear that Clostermann had witnessed Gowers’ death; his account confirms the ORBs of the three squadrons involved: Gowers’ Typhoon apparently vanished into thin air under the weight of the defensive bombardment. Gowers’ widow recalled afterwards, “They said it was direct hit. His plane just blew apart, it virtually disintegrated.

Poppa Ambrose concluded his log, “We came back to the Mess and normally most of us remained sensible and drank beer, not spirits, but I remember that afternoon we opened the bar at four o’clock; we were all hacked off. Gus Gowers, the CO of 183, had been lost.”

Joan Gowers, received a telegram from the Air Ministry the following day reporting her husband “Missing”, and in vain she waited for good news. The telegram she had been dreading came from Buckingham Palace, personally signed by King George V1, “The Queen and I offer you our heartfelt sympathy in your great sorrow. We pray that your country’s gratitude for a life so nobly given in its service may bring you some measure of consolation.”

Останалите версии:
"Мюнстерланд" е потопен от HMS "Charybdis" - http://www.abc.se/~m10354/mar/charybdis.htm (написано е на френски. Ина резюме на английски)

Потопен от "Бюфайтърите" край Холандия.
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Odzava

Регистриран на: 24 Авг 2005
Мнения: 418
Местожителство: Хашира Джима

МнениеПуснато на: Съб 23 Окт 2010, 03:42    Заглавие:  

Някой има ли информация за гръцките боненосци "Василевс Георгиус" и "Василиса Олга"? Успях да намеря нещичко единствено в Конвей, справочника на Тарас и разни общи приказки в Мрежата. Някой има ли идея къде да погледна?
Ако имате контакти с колеги от Гърция, които биха ми помогнали с информация ще се радвам ако ги споделите.
Благодаря предварително.
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AST

Регистриран на: 25 Яну 2010
Мнения: 70

МнениеПуснато на: Съб 23 Окт 2010, 08:56    Заглавие:  

Те не са ли разрушители клас G? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G_and_H_class_destroyer#Royal_Hellenic_Navy_ships
Или е имало и други кораби със същото име по рано?
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Odzava

Регистриран на: 24 Авг 2005
Мнения: 418
Местожителство: Хашира Джима

МнениеПуснато на: Съб 23 Окт 2010, 15:05    Заглавие:  

Това са други кораби. Става дума за тези:

Battery armoured 'Basilissa Olga' (1868)
Built by STT, Trieste Austria-Hungary for Greece
Laid down in: 1868 01 01
Launched in: 1869 01 26
Completed in: 1870 01 01
sold out or BU in 1925 01 01 by Greece
Technical data: from the completition 70
Displacement projected - 2030,00 tonns = 5,79 m.
1 ? ? * 1 screws /// Normal HP: 1950 HP = 10 knots.
Length - 76 m. pp; Beam - 11,89 m.;
Total crew: 258
240 tonns of coal
Armament: From the completition
2 Main gun \\\ 229 /L=13,9 (MLR) (1849 12 17_YY) () \\\ In single deck mounting
10 Secondary gun \\\ 70ф /L=?? (YYYY_YY) () \\\ In single deck mounting
Armament: in 1880 01 02
4 Secondary gun \\\ 170 /L=25 (1863 01 01_YY) () \\\ In single deck mounting
2 Secondary gun \\\ 170 /L=20 (1868 01 01_YY) () \\\ In single deck mounting
4 QF gun \\\ 37 /L=23 (1879_Rs) () \\\ In single deck mounting

Battery armoured 'Basileos Georgious' (1866)
Built by Thames Iron Works, Blackwall Great Britain for Greece
Laid down in: 1866 01 01
Launched in: 1867 12 28
Completed in: 1868 01 01
sold out or BU in 1915 01 01 by Greece
Technical data: from the completition 17
Displacement projected - 1774,00 tonns = 4,88 m.
1 ? ? * 1 screws /// Normal HP: 2100 HP = 12,2 knots.
Length - 60,96 m. pp; Beam - 10,06 m.;
Total crew: 152
210 tonns of coal
Armament: From the completition
2 Main gun \\\ 229 /L=13,9 (MLR) (1849 12 17_YY) () \\\ In single deck mounting
2 Secondary gun \\\ 20ф /L=?? (YYYY_YY) () \\\ In single deck mounting
Armament: in 1880 01 02
2 Secondary gun \\\ 210 /L=?? (1866 01 01_YY) () \\\ In single deck mounting
2 Secondary gun \\\ 20ф /L=?? (YYYY_YY) () \\\ In single deck mounting

За тези говоря.
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popay_the_sailor
[Admin]


Регистриран на: 06 Яну 2004
Мнения: 10243
Местожителство: Варна

МнениеПуснато на: Пон 25 Окт 2010, 16:47    Заглавие:  

Тука из архивите имам едно изображение на Олга, ама къде е правена снимката не знам.

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_________________
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Rolling, turning, diving, going in again
Run, live to fly, fly to live, do or die
Run, live to fly, fly to live, Aces high.
--------------------------------------------
Есть ложь, наглая ложь и советская историография
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Odzava

Регистриран на: 24 Авг 2005
Мнения: 418
Местожителство: Хашира Джима

МнениеПуснато на: Пон 25 Окт 2010, 17:36    Заглавие:  

Благодаря!
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RAK

Регистриран на: 10 Фев 2011
Мнения: 1

МнениеПуснато на: Чет 10 Фев 2011, 14:22    Заглавие:    

Здравей,
какво не му харесваш на Конуей? Тя и снимката на Попай е има в него.
Изпращам ти наличната информация от справочниците от това време Brassey's naval annual, Weyer's Flottentaschenbuch и Военные флоты-справочная книжка. Всъщност всички по-късни източници цитират тях. Както и сайтовете разбира се Smile

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Тази скица на "Георгиос" е всъщност оцветен Конуей.
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Ако си намерил някоя връзка в Гърция, може да подхвърлиш малко инфо, макар аз не бих разчитал на тях. По-скоро може да се намерят данни в архивите на заводите ако са запазени.

Гърците едва ли имат повече от това по сайтовете:
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